Versus #2 Disgruntled Bitter Students vs. the ASUC
People keep bitching in the comments about how lame the ASUC is. Although expending time and energy bitching about the ASUC is so much sadder than the people who waste time and energy doing ASUC things, I don’t feel like reading all of those comments in other posts, so if you want to bitch about the ASUC, either do it here or take it somewhere else.
[And if anyone ever starts collecting signatures to get something on the ballot to disband the ASUC or feels like blabbing dirty secrets about the ASUC, do tell me please.]
we gonna start dis shiT soon andy. give us a couple weeks to get da propisition drafted den watch da signatures flow in. =)
“-smashT”
Comment by smashT — August 29, 2005 @ 2:52 pm
Right on! We need to get this started before it just dies out like some sort of fad. If the ASUC is smart they’re going to start distributing flyers with ways that the ASUC has benefitted students (which will be like a quarter sheet at most).
All we have to do is convince the students that they are better off without the ASUC than with it. Not only do they take the students’ money away, they spend it on egregious things that they think we’re too stupid to inform ourselves on, like prop 54, or the multicultural center. The peopel in the ASUC are probably sitting there thinking they’re above and too good for blogs. I haven’t seen Igor or Manny or Liz or Dena or Christine on this blog defending the ASUC. I don’t see any of the current senators coming out and helping their constituents. Don’t you people see? They care more about their fame and power than the people they’re supposed to represent. If you, please show us!
Comment by DTI — August 29, 2005 @ 3:01 pm
Actually, current and former Senators (including Igor numerous times) do pop on CalStuff ever so often, so for the record, I’ve usually been impressed with the way they make an effort to engage the concerns of students…
Comment by Andy R. — August 29, 2005 @ 3:09 pm
But not today.
Comment by DTI — August 29, 2005 @ 3:21 pm
I don’t see why they would. What would be the point?
Comment by Beetle — August 29, 2005 @ 3:25 pm
Refuting you guys is a waste of time. Blow me.
Comment by Former Senator — August 29, 2005 @ 3:57 pm
It’s that kind of attitude that will bring you people down. You think you’re so much better than the regular students because you were “senators”.
You people are such elitists, and I think everyone should know how you think. Maybe this referendum really will pass for the good of the whole student body.
Comment by Jeff TW — August 29, 2005 @ 5:25 pm
smashT, and others-
make sure this isn’t just an anti-ASUC tirade but rather a reform of what the current system is, concerning our excessive fees, and the bullshit ASUC waste and the movement in the administration mentioned earlier. make sure this movement can be sustained.
totally in support here.
instead of “down wit da ASUC!” tho how about enough squandering of our fees, let’s actually benefit from our costs.
Comment by Reason — August 29, 2005 @ 9:13 pm
That will take a few things, but I think I can come up with a compromise. This has to be sort of unconditional and stuff, tho…
1) Senators and Executives and all their interns and staff workers can keep their resume friendly titles. Boom,that’s their end of the deal. That’s the only reason why they did it.
2) The budget is taken out of the senators’ hands. The new system will create individual accounts for each student. Each student has a bearfacts account with $55 on it. They can choose from a list of OSL registered groups for which to give their money to. To ensure that there’s enough money, each student can add money to his or her account and donate it to clubs. ALl the money has to be spent, or any leftover money will be allocated into a general fund to automatically distribute to newly formed clubs .
3) The senate’s only bills will be external bills. No more messing with groups’ fundings. No more no on 54 bullshit, no more paying off BAMN. No executive salaries, no payoffs to the administration.
This is kind of how I think federal taxes should be structured. This reduces the power and corruption in the ASUC to nearly nothing. SOmeone please gove me feedback.
Comment by DTI — August 29, 2005 @ 9:29 pm
Umm… some of us have fun without needing to spend money on clubs to do it. It’s no different for many of us if we still have to put that money into the ASUC.
Comment by Beetle — August 29, 2005 @ 9:52 pm
But you get to decide where YOUR money goes to, instead of 20 jerks passing around the buck. Of course, liek I said my first choice would be to abolish the ASUC.
Comment by DTI — August 29, 2005 @ 9:59 pm
DTI: I actually thought about almost the same exact plan last year. Nice to see that it’s not so far out there that others wouldn’t think it a good idea. Though I also would rather see the ASUC abolished if possible.
Beetle: You could register a “Get Beetle Drunk” club with the OSL. I’d send a dollar your way when it comes time to fund my chosen groups.
Comment by patr — August 29, 2005 @ 11:26 pm
dti, dont pussy out now with this compromise bullshit.
Comment by tmac — August 29, 2005 @ 11:58 pm
Couple things:
It doesn’t matter what the average student thinks. It matters what the average voter thinks. For the most part, the average voter is a member of an organization that gets its funding from the ASUC, which to their knowledge, is all the ASUC does.
CalSERVE/BAMN will have 3000 votes against you without a day of organizing. They have the power they do because they make voting more difficult than it needs to be so the average student doesn’t bother. Their communities come out in force, get seats and funnel money back to their recruitment and retention centers and race based clubs. They’ll fight tooth and nail against anyone who threatens to kill that golden goose.
SA’s Greek/club base will be easier to win over since they aren’t as politically emotive, but they’ll listen to the CalSERVE campaigners who tell them they’ll lose their funding, regardless of how accurate it is.
You have to get 1000 signatures (validated by the AG) before the proposition will be placed before the students. From there, you have to get a 60% majority of the voters to pass it.
I very much doubt the university will let you host something like this on Bear Facts. They won’t want to deal with it, and anything that makes life easier for the ASUC the university will be against (ask any Election Council Chair, they go round and round with the university for months when it comes to validating student status for elections and opening up nodes to run the computers, etc). You’re better off hosting something like that on an ASUC server and have an independent body maintain and monitor the system.
There’s going to be a ton of money that isn’t allocated because people won’t hear about it, won’t care or will forget to do it. Also, at the end of every year there’s a ton of money left over from clubs that didn’t spend what they were allocated.
I like the self allocation idea better than the current system, but it poses a lot of problems. I strongly suggest you look at ways to break the party system or a way to establish an independent allocating body before any sort of scorched earth solution.
Comment by Mike Davis — August 30, 2005 @ 12:21 am
DTI (responding from here)-
First, sorry other senators didn’t give you the responses you were looking for. I think there are some alternatives other than the stripped down version you propose above. It’s very libertarian and interesting, but somewhat flawed, as I will discuss.
First, some responses to earlier claims. Yeah, the bookstore contract still sucks. However, it is a result of the Commercial Activities Agreement signed in 1998 following the ASUC acquiring a $6 million debt to textbook suppliers. As a result, we don’t get to hire any direct employees, among other drawbacks. This is why the ASUC Auxiliary is in place to manage commercial activities, and why the bookstore was outsourced. I don’t see this as being punched in the face 5 or 10 times; I see it as letting trained professionals do the job they know how to do rather than letting the ASUC pretend to know how to run a store and crash it. Something is always better than nothing, and if business in the ASUC Bookstore continues to increase, we will have more funds to give to all student groups.
And now to your proposal. Federal and state taxes pay for services like fire, police, sewage, etc. As such, ASUC fees go to fund student services in addition to student group events, including:
* Sponsoring De-Cal Classes
* Student Group Advising
* Student Advocate Office
* Free publications on campus
* URM Outreach
* ASUC SUPERB
* The Committee on Student Fees (designed to study the efficiency of both university and ASUC-imposed campus fees)
* Quasi-effective lobbying efforts to city and state officials for the better treatment of students, either financially or politically
How much each of these services is stressed is dependant on elected officials.
Additionally, don’t forget that unlike federal taxes, at any time you can go to the 4th Floor of Eshleman Hall and get your money back, then give it to whatever student group you choose. BearFacts isn’t even needed.
Also, as an inevitability to your proposal, corruption would become just as rampant as now, if not increasingly so. Would you want to be part of a campus where people continually were campaigning for your $55 via BearFacts? If you think elections are bad now, think about it going on for 365 days a year.
Now, of course, there is a difference between good government and big bureaucracy, something I (as well as others) have been trying to fight for some time now. But, once again, the ASUC is a democracy, and some will always exist. It’s just a matter of constantly and actively searching out reform to make it better. It’s cyclical, but controllable.
PS - I agree on the Student Voice Referendum comment. If you remember, I was the primary opponent of the proposal.
Comment by Ben N. — August 30, 2005 @ 12:40 am
DTI…
first we smashT da ASUC den we figure out wat to put in its place. I kinda like ur idea but id take it even one step further. have no 55 dollar system, let da students give however much moneys dey want to dere clubs.
but first ting is first. asuc must be crushT.
“-smashT”
Comment by smashT — August 30, 2005 @ 1:04 am
“Also, as an inevitability to your proposal, corruption would become just as rampant as now, if not increasingly so. Would you want to be part of a campus where people continually were campaigning for your $55 via BearFacts? If you think elections are bad now, think about it going on for 365 days a year.”
oh ben oh ben. dis is really a reach for u m@n. i know u wants to defend ur ppl and all but please dun put up arguments like dis.
1. clubs alrdy campaign 365 days a year for members and money. were is da corruption in dis? so da corruption is to make clubs have to rely on its members for support? waT?
2. let each student decide waT dey wanna fund wit dey monies.
“-snashT”
Comment by smashT — August 30, 2005 @ 1:09 am
dude. You mis-spelled your own signature.
Comment by Ben N. — August 30, 2005 @ 1:28 am
I laughed so hard at comment #18, Ben.
Comment by Andy R. — August 30, 2005 @ 2:09 am
I’m going to finish this later because I have to run to class but Ben’s here a good rebuttal of some of your points.
“* Sponsoring De-Cal Classes”
I taught a decal class with no funding and it was arguably one of the most successful decals. In fact, the ASUC office of the President just took it over.
“* Student Group Advising”
Student groups don’t really need money for advising, in fact they don’t really need that much advising. Just give them guidelines and what they can and can’t do and they’ll be fine. Does SQUELCH! get advising?
“* Student Advocate Office”
You mean these attorneys are actually paid? I always thought that this was a volunteer thing that promoted activism in the community, not ASUC funds. they have no law degrees but they cost money??
“* Free publications on campus”
The California Patriot gets NO ASUC FUNDING and they’re one of the most successful publication on campus in terms of the way it looks and how their layout is attractive. They also distribute in large numbers.
“* URM Outreach”
Why would URM groups get so much money… why does the BRRC get $40,000 or more and there are less and less black people coming to Cal, least of all why is the President of BRRC telling blacks not to come to Cal? This seems a little messed up if we’re giving them so much money. They should get as much as any other student group under DTI’s new plan with people allocating their money. Trust me, there are enough URM die-hards to give them money. It shouldn’t involuntarily come out of my pocket. I’m paying for a President of a club to tell blacks not to come to Cal. WOW. Unless they have an Asian American recruitment and retention center, these gorups are useless.
“* ASUC SUPERB”
Don’t even get us started on SUPERB. Dane Cook, among other things, where they spent like $50,000 on a comedy show that served 2/3 mon students. I heard you say it yourself, Ben. They’re also rude when they ahve to take like a miniscule pay cut.
“* The Committee on Student Fees (designed to study the efficiency of both university and ASUC-imposed campus fees)”
Um… they never do anything. I have lived through 30% feeincreases, 14% fee increases, just about as many fee increases as there were California fiscal budgets. Wait… the CSF “studies” the efficiency… WTF?? We’re paying them money to STUDY FEES???
“* Quasi-effective lobbying efforts to city and state officials for the better treatment of students, either financially or politically”
I think “quasi-effective” is stretchign it a bit. I went to a lobby day and we got less done than had we sat our asses on sproula nd went on a hunger strike. Why this group gets money to lobby and make us look stupid in Sacramento is really beyond explanation.
Comment by RepBast1984 — August 30, 2005 @ 5:45 am
“dude. You mis-spelled your own signature.”
so? ur argument still sux. wen u start criticizing ppl’s grammar on da internet daTs wen u know u’ve lost the argument. smashT
“-snashT smashT w/e”
Comment by smashT — August 30, 2005 @ 9:27 am
keep it up repbast. u smashTing tem so bad its fukin hilarious. dey honesly cant respond to ur shiT cuz dey know u are right and dat dey organization deserves to be smashT to da ground.
“-smashT”
Comment by smashT — August 30, 2005 @ 9:28 am
Well RepBast, you are pointing out problems that these offices have had, but for most part, it’s the exception, and not the rule.
* Many De-Cal classes can cost upwards of a few hundred times, depending on the hand-outs involved and media rentals. Part of a democratic education is (arguably) that anyone with a good idea can teach a class, and money is not an issue for teachers or students. These classes provide a service beyond the university and are a public good. You’re right: some classes don’t need money. But many do.
* The majority of student groups, including the Squelch, use their advisors all the time to make their way through the maze that is university regulation and bureaucracy. It’s nice being able to rely on this safety network.
* With the exception of a handful of people, no one is paid in the Student Advocate Office. The funds go to running off paper, publicity of services, buying new law books, equipment repair, etc.
* There are ~50 publications distributed by ASUC publications, and most of them are free to students. Cal Patriot and Socialist Worker are not ASUC sponsored, but have backing from major outside funding sources. Once again, the exception, and not the rule.
* SUPERB does many smaller, more specialized events for groups of students, and provides sound equipment and such to student organizations that need one-time uses. Yes, the Dean Cook fiasco stunk, and SUPERB needs reform, but it’s not useless. They also made all but $2000 back on that show, if I recall, but the principle remains.
* The CSF is the group that has helped stop rising RSF and OSL fees over the last five years, as well as helped reform the Life Safety Fee, among others.
* Our underpublicized lobbying with the city often goes pretty well. The mayor and several city council members have their ears open to student leaders, and their intentions are (for the most part) good.
Comment by Ben N. — August 30, 2005 @ 11:16 am
test
Comment by Ben N. — August 30, 2005 @ 11:17 am
I think we should hear from a few other senators. I know Senator Tregub and Senator Thomas have shown their faces on this blog. As well as past some past senators, such as Senator Bloom. Perhaps they have something to contribute?
Comment by anon — August 30, 2005 @ 11:38 am
“* Many De-Cal classes can cost upwards of a few hundred times, depending on the hand-outs involved and media rentals. Part of a democratic education is (arguably) that anyone with a good idea can teach a class, and money is not an issue for teachers or students. These classes provide a service beyond the university and are a public good. You’re right: some classes don’t need money. But many do.”
I taught a decal class that had both handouts and extensive use of the media equipment and it was virtually free. It’s a matter of where you look for sources (local libraries), as well as talking to a professor who is sponsoring the decal who will let you make copies from their machine. People who want money for decals are not looking hard enough for the best way to minimize the costs to both student governmnet and, indirectly, other students. Any of my students can attest that we did a great job with no costs at all.
*Maybe if we started by getting rid of the ASUC and getting rid of bureaucracy, then this would show the University we’re not going to tolerate bureaucratic inefficiencies and, in time, we won’t need to hire people to work through a system that already is costing too much money.
*Buying law books?? My dear ASUC, it’s a website called www.lexisnexis.com, or www.westlaw.com that have all laws ONLINE, including analyses, and tons of useful legal services. Even law firms are starting to not buy law books and they’re LAW FIRMS. The SAO isn;t a law firm, it never will be and the people who work there probably won’t become lawyers any time soon. By the way, who is paid in the SAO?? Those people shouldn’t be paid… they’re students who volunteer! Back in my time volunteer meant not getting paid for community service.
*Maybe if publications modeled themselves off of teh CalPatriot or the International Socialist Worker and got small private donations they would be better publications. teh Patriot and teh Smartass get virtually the same amoutn of funding (from whatever sources), yet one is an admired publication (not because of content but because of presentation), and the other one spells “Nader” wrong.
*”They also made all but $2000 back on that show, if I recall, but the principle remains.”
REFORM REFORM, we’ve been hearing that for how long and it hasn’t been done! You should know, Senator Narodick, you’re an independent senator and you probably see the reform that needs to be done. SUPERB gets paid tons of money and they misappropriate the funds. At the same time good sized clubs are comign back with like $200 with more members than SUPERB. If after a hundred years of “tradition” the student government won’t reform, why does it still exist?
*So we pay money to these groups (a LOT of money) so that they can *hopefully* prevent money from rising? It seems like we put money in and it’s not always certain that we’re going to get anything. Cal lobby day?
*Name some things that the ASUC has done to negociate with the city of Berkeley. Hell, the University alone has a hell of a time with the city of Berkeley. Why would Tom Bates, Kriss Worthington and the pack of cheats in the city council listen to a student “club” (as EAVP Anu Joshi once called the ASUC to justify robbing students of $35,000 on no on prop 54) to formulate its policy?
Thanks for your input, at least you care and are responding to us in the way our other elected officials should be doing.
Comment by RepBast1984 — August 30, 2005 @ 12:19 pm
“* Many De-Cal classes can cost upwards of a few hundred times, depending on the hand-outs involved and media rentals. Part of a democratic education is (arguably) that anyone with a good idea can teach a class, and money is not an issue for teachers or students. These classes provide a service beyond the university and are a public good. You’re right: some classes don’t need money. But many do.”
I taught a decal class that had both handouts and extensive use of the media equipment and it was virtually free. It’s a matter of where you look for sources (local libraries), as well as talking to a professor who is sponsoring the decal who will let you make copies from their machine. People who want money for decals are not looking hard enough for the best way to minimize the costs to both student governmnet and, indirectly, other students. Any of my students can attest that we did a great job with no costs at all.
*Maybe if we started by getting rid of the ASUC and getting rid of bureaucracy, then this would show the University we’re not going to tolerate bureaucratic inefficiencies and, in time, we won’t need to hire people to work through a system that already is costing too much money.
*Buying law books?? My dear ASUC, it’s a website called www.lexisnexis.com, or www.westlaw.com that have all laws ONLINE, including analyses, and tons of useful legal services. Even law firms are starting to not buy law books and they’re LAW FIRMS. The SAO isn;t a law firm, it never will be and the people who work there probably won’t become lawyers any time soon. By the way, who is paid in the SAO?? Those people shouldn’t be paid… they’re students who volunteer! Back in my time volunteer meant not getting paid for community service.
*Maybe if publications modeled themselves off of teh CalPatriot or the International Socialist Worker and got small private donations they would be better publications. teh Patriot and teh Smartass get virtually the same amoutn of funding (from whatever sources), yet one is an admired publication (not because of content but because of presentation), and the other one spells “Nader” wrong.
*”They also made all but $2000 back on that show, if I recall, but the principle remains.”
REFORM REFORM, we’ve been hearing that for how long and it hasn’t been done! You should know, Senator Narodick, you’re an independent senator and you probably see the reform that needs to be done. SUPERB gets paid tons of money and they misappropriate the funds. At the same time good sized clubs are comign back with like $200 with more members than SUPERB. If after a hundred years of “tradition” the student government won’t reform, why does it still exist?
*So we pay money to these groups (a LOT of money) so that they can *hopefully* prevent money from rising? It seems like we put money in and it’s not always certain that we’re going to get anything. Cal lobby day?
*Name some things that the ASUC has done to negociate with the city of Berkeley. Hell, the University alone has a hell of a time with the city of Berkeley. Why would Tom Bates, Kriss Worthington and the pack of cheats in the city council listen to a student “club” (as EAVP Anu Joshi once called the ASUC to justify robbing students of $35,000 on no on prop 54) to formulate its policy?
Thanks for your input, at least you care and are responding to us in the way our other elected officials should be doing.
Comment by RepBast1984 — August 30, 2005 @ 2:15 pm
Sorry I tried to post this but I guess it was too long so I broke it into two parts
“* Many De-Cal classes can cost upwards of a few hundred times, depending on the hand-outs involved and media rentals. Part of a democratic education is (arguably) that anyone with a good idea can teach a class, and money is not an issue for teachers or students. These classes provide a service beyond the university and are a public good. You’re right: some classes don’t need money. But many do.”
I taught a decal class that had both handouts and extensive use of the media equipment and it was virtually free. It’s a matter of where you look for sources (local libraries), as well as talking to a professor who is sponsoring the decal who will let you make copies from their machine. People who want money for decals are not looking hard enough for the best way to minimize the costs to both student governmnet and, indirectly, other students. Any of my students can attest that we did a great job with no costs at all.
*Maybe if we started by getting rid of the ASUC and getting rid of bureaucracy, then this would show the University we’re not going to tolerate bureaucratic inefficiencies and, in time, we won’t need to hire people to work through a system that already is costing too much money.
*Buying law books?? My dear ASUC, it’s a website called www.lexisnexis.com, or www.westlaw.com that have all laws ONLINE, including analyses, and tons of useful legal services. Even law firms are starting to not buy law books and they’re LAW FIRMS. The SAO isn;t a law firm, it never will be and the people who work there probably won’t become lawyers any time soon. By the way, who is paid in the SAO?? Those people shouldn’t be paid… they’re students who volunteer! Back in my time volunteer meant not getting paid for community service.
*Maybe if publications modeled themselves off of teh CalPatriot or the International Socialist Worker and got small private donations they would be better publications. teh Patriot and teh Smartass get virtually the same amoutn of funding (from whatever sources), yet one is an admired publication (not because of content but because of presentation), and the other one spells “Nader” wrong.
Comment by RepBast1984 — August 30, 2005 @ 2:18 pm
Disregard the last 2 posts. The last post was post #26
Comment by RepBast1984 — August 30, 2005 @ 3:47 pm
damn I didn’t know Mike Tyson trolled these forums
.
other than that count me in on abolishing the ASUC. I want my money back!
Comment by Alex E. — August 30, 2005 @ 6:10 pm
Well, well, well, I see a lot of compelling arguments to abolish the ASUC. I’m pretty sure more than a majority of the people think we should. Wed just need to turn emotions into action. You can’t have change without both. Who else is with us?
Comment by DTI — August 30, 2005 @ 6:18 pm
Well, if you’re genuinely serious, you may want to consider finding a forum of your own, rather than working in Calstuff comment boxes.
Comment by Beetle — August 30, 2005 @ 6:25 pm
THE PATRIOT HAS MORE MONEY THAN ANY CLUB/PUBLICATION ETC. on CAMPUS. PLEASE DO NOT USE THE PATRIOT AS A SYMBOL OF THE “UNFORTUNATE GROUP” THAT HAS NOT ASUC MONEY. THE PATRIOT IS FUNDED BY EVERY RIGHT-WING NUT WEST OF THE ATLANTIC OCEAN.
Comment by Anonymous — August 30, 2005 @ 8:28 pm
They have fundraising skillz. I think someone is suggesting that other publications should get fundraising skillz.
Comment by Beetle — August 30, 2005 @ 8:45 pm
You know, like nunchuck skills, bowhunting skills, computer hacking skills… Girls only like groups that have great fundraizing skills.
Comment by anon — August 31, 2005 @ 10:19 am
http://abolishtheasuc.blogspot.com/
Comment by DTI — August 31, 2005 @ 4:59 pm
Abolish the ASUC?
Yes, says CalStuff regular DTI, who is leading the movement to do exactly that. In the past week or so, discontent has been growing against UC Berkeley’s student government.
Calling all Cal students. The ASUC has sold us out to various special …
Trackback by california patriot blog — August 31, 2005 @ 5:29 pm
“WOW. Unless they have an Asian American recruitment and retention center, these gorups are useless.”
Actually, there are two RRCs focused on the APA community. One is REACH. CalSERVE Senator Anthony Lin and CalSERVE presidential candidate Justine Lazaro worked with them last year. The other is PASS, which is specifically focused on the Pilipin@ community. CalSERVE Senator Rita Encarnacion and CalSERVE candidate Vaughn Villaverde are both involved with PASS.
Comment by Just FYI — September 9, 2005 @ 11:37 am
I don’t see a Chinese/Japanese/Korean recruitment and retention center for those students who live in poor areas. Oh wait, it’s ok to discriminate aginst them because they’re just model minorities.
Comment by RepBast1984 — September 9, 2005 @ 12:06 pm